NYCPHP Meetup

[Ben Sgro]

Morning all,

Lots of great emails to read this morning when I got in. Thanks for all your
thoughts!

So many good points in this last one, I'm sure where to start.

1) If I had known it was so unorganized I would not have taken the job. Next
time I will ask to see source samples and speak more with the project
managers I'll be working with.

2) I am currently working on a spec, speaking with other developers and a
proposal. Along with documenting my time and issues. I hope to make change
for the better of "the company" = ]

3) I try to clean-up code as I see it, but its exhausting.

As stated, I will suck it up for the time being, but believe I am looking
for a new job soon. </rant>

Again, many great points. I saved the previous emails and will be referring
to them for advice in the future!

- Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Anirudh Zala
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 3:36 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] General Q; Programming Jobs & Expectations

> To: talk at lists.nyphp.org
> Subject: [nycphp-talk] General Q; Programming Jobs & Expectations
>
>
>
> Hello all,
>
>
> I've been following the list now for a bit, lots of great discussion.
>
>
> I recently moved to NY from NH where I was doing php/mysql/c development  
> for a small start-up.
>
> We had very detailed specs, excellent coding styles (use of includes,  
> small modular procedures and plenty of comments).
>
> Software was engineered first through a specification and given at least
> 'some' thought prior to implementation.
>
>
> Now, starting my new job in NY I am at a larger company that is much more
> successful than my last. However,

>
> I am constantly running into files with no comments, spaghetti structure  
> (or
> non at all) limited includes (large amounts of duplicate code) and NO  
> specs
> what-so-ever on an extremely large project & database(s) with 100's of
> stored procedures (again with no comments).

On large projects there are always 10% to 15% clumsiness in code etc.,  
since all cooks (developers) are not having same level of skills. However  
this should not be because any kind of large project must have certain  
level of programming standards which every developers must follow in any  
case no matter how much it severely effects his/her own personal style or  
methods.

>
> This effects my work directly as it takes unnecessarily long to become
> familiar with the code that is spread across multiple files and templates
> with no comments or structure.

It has to be and will take more in future. Personally I would never work  
on such projects unless there is no scope of bringing improvements.

>
>
> So, my question is: Is it unreasonable of myself to have expectations of
> 'engineered' code or is this (current job) just the way things are.

Your demand is not unreasonable AT ALL. In fact that should be correct way  
of development of any project. But in your case your project might be in  
hands of unskilled developers at the time of development or later at  
certain stage and later they didn't correct it at regular intervals.

>
> Is it crazy to think I can change things from the bottom, by writing the
> specs and speaking with the other programmers to reach a consensus on  
> 'best practices' and create 'grassroots' support? Should I just 'suck it  
> up' and put in my time, then move to another job?

You can try (I mean correcting code and writing specs.), but it wont bring  
shiny results, because improvements will be bits and pieces. Moreover if  
your co-workers are not willing to accept your changes, you will  
constantly struggle with them first and then yourself because you can't  
change it quickly. So every time you open such file during your work,  
first thing will come up in your mind will be like "grrh....same file  
again, how to change it to make it more readable by adding comments,  
improving coding style etc." But it is not going to happen since your  
small changes will not solve whole problem. Personally I advice to look  
for other job if possible. Why because even if you "suck it up" for time  
being, your inner self (perhaps your "passion") will, at one stage, force  
you to get out of current working environment and if you don't do it will  
severely effect your whole career and life. Reason behind this assumption  
is that You seems Quality minded passion driven person where you  
constantly thrive to Improve your surroundings for "Good" (code,  
co-workers etc.).

To me better options, or perhaps a chance to show your skills, is to  
present your proposal to your higher management about the changes that you  
want to bring in the project your are working in. Prepare in-depth  
analysis of your study and present it to them. Of course you will need  
consent of other programmers to support your proposal. Your proposal can  
contain changes that you want to bring in software and why they are  
required, What steps to be taken to implement those changes, how much time  
and cost will it take and finally how it will can beneficial to the  
company. If this clicks then you will get chance to work like you want to,  
and you might be promoted to position of Project Manager because such  
changes are part of better project management, otherwise you will likely  
to have troubles in current environment that you have described here.

>
>
> I've been consulting along with my full time work for about 2 years now,  
> and I believe that is what I truly enjoy, being my own boss.
>
> But I do need a paycheck every week, so this is not yet a viable
> alternative.
>

This is the crucial point on which you need to think again and again and  
to find better solution. Having required paycheck by having job in other  
company will fulfil your monetary requirements, but how about your SELF  
which is against your current working environment. Also remember the rule  
"Either change things that you feel are not proper or change yourself if  
there is no option."

>
> Thanks for your time, I am eager to view your responses!
>
>
> - Ben
>
>
>
>

-----------------------------------------------
Anirudh Zala (Project Manager)
ASPL, http://www.aspl.in
Ph: +91 281 245 1894
arzala at gmail.com
-----------------------------------------------
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