NYCPHP Meetup

[nycphp-talk] Followup: Going weekly rate for phpdeveloper/coderin NYC these days?

Nicholas Tang ntang at communityconnect.com
Thu Jan 18 13:40:16 EST 2007


I guess that's the difference between full-time employees at good
companies vs. bad ones: I've told the CEO his idea was stupid before and
after he got over the shock we had a discussion about why and moved on
with it.  At a lot of companies it would've gotten me fired (and I
wouldn't necessarily recommend it to anyone else, but I was having a bad
day and he was being insistent), but that's why I'm not working at those
companies.

There are always politics and always gotchas, but I wouldn't work at any
company where I wouldn't feel comfortable being honest (censoring myself
to avoid insulting people is fine - i.e. "I don't agree with that idea"
vs. "That idea is stupid", but censoring myself to support bad ideas is
not).  I expect the people that report into me to tell me when I'm
screwing something up, and I expect my bosses to be able to take it when
I tell them the same.

Nicholas

> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org 
> [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of edward potter
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:27 PM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Followup: Going weekly rate for 
> phpdeveloper/coderin NYC these days?
> 
> I have found that FT employees ALWAYS have to get involved in office
> politics, worry about doing what the boss wants them to do, and toe
> the line.  Contractors can say the direction this is going is all
> wrong - you can be much more independent, that's why they are worth a
> BIG premium, they they don't lose their edge, don't have to please
> everyone, and don't have to worry about not getting invited to the
> office picnic.
> 
> Or as I've said to the CEO (as a contractor): what you are doing here
> is totally stupid, you have to change course.
> CEO:  damn, you're right, NO one here ever told me that before. They
> just yes me to death.
> 
> Just my 2 cents!  :-)  ed
> 
> On 1/18/07, Nicholas Tang <ntang at communityconnect.com> wrote:
> > I guess a lot depends on whether you look at it as an 
> employer or as an
> > employee.  From my perspective in terms of what I'd be 
> willing to pay a
> > contractor, it's nowhere near 2.5x what I'd pay a full-time 
> employee.
> > I'd pay them what I'd pay a full-time employee plus the savings in
> > benefits, which is more like 120% instead of 250%.  If they're
> > especially critical, maybe 150%.  I also prefer to hire 
> full-time people
> > most of the time.  ;)
> >
> > > Money for vacation, sick and personal time - Consulting 
> for yourself,
> > > you don't work, you don't get paid
> >
> > Yup.
> >
> > > Retirement funds - Somebody has to pay me to golf 
> everyday and travel
> > > after I'm 65 1/2 ;-)
> >
> > Yup.
> >
> > > Medical and life insurance - This is the expensive part,
> > > without a bulk
> > > discount, insurance is like $2000 a month
> >
> > Yup.
> >
> > > Business equipment/space/expenses - Somebody's got to pay 
> the rent for
> > > your office space and equipment and related expenses
> >
> > A lot of contractors work on-site, which eliminates these expenses.
> >
> > > Taxes - Uncle Sam wants his cut too, the figure varies but it's
> > > somewhere between 25 - 30% of your pay...
> >
> > Us full-timers pay taxes too.  :)  If not, I'd be on a 
> yacht right now
> > instead of in the office.  ;)
> >
> > > Misc. Benefits - Enjoy that free coffee, gym membership, or other
> > > activities at the office? Now you get to spring for them...
> >
> > True, with the caveat above.  (If a contractor's in our 
> office, they can
> > of course partake of any of the free coffee or other 
> similar benefits as
> > a full-timer.)
> >
> > > In addition, you are essentially running a business now so to
> > > gather new
> > > business you have to pay for advertising, treating new 
> and existing
> > > clients to lunch or dinner to promote new business, pay 
> for your own
> > > training and certifications, and those trips to MacWorld, 
> GeekCruise,
> > > etc...
> >
> > Yup.
> >
> > All of those are reasons why I never understood why so many 
> companies
> > hire so many contractors - if I had a choice between hiring 
> someone for
> > a 6 month contract, or to be a full-time employee for 15 
> months for the
> > same rate, I'd hire them full-time in a second.  It makes 
> no sense to me
> > to pay such a huge premium for the same thing.  (And someone's value
> > goes up to me over time as they learn how the company works, how our
> > technology works, etc.  It can take weeks to get someone up 
> to speed on
> > a new environment and practices, and it's a lot easier to eat that
> > "cost" over the course of full-time employment than if you 
> bring in a
> > short-term contractor.)
> >
> > Nicholas
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