[nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
Hans Zaunere
lists at zaunere.com
Thu Apr 17 12:20:37 EDT 2008
A note on this thread in general:
Please keep it clean and the one-line responses to a minimum, or take them
off-list - there's too much traffic for posts that don't have real content.
Hi Kristina, et al,
Wow, what a thread... I remember a similar one years ago, and obviously
these types of issues are still preeminent - regardless of the economy.
I agree Kristina - there is a mismatch between the underlying importance of
IT workers (notably developers, architectures, etc) and their recognition,
reward, and appreciation (yes, cry for us, Argentina).
As many of us probably do, I have an ear on the start-up, entrepreneurial
and "Silicon Alley" crowd as it's often coined. What's always surprising,
and frankly somewhat amusing, is that through the technology start-up
process - concept development, prototyping, funding, implementation - the
technology people are often secondary, and even trivialized. Typically the
importance of the technology - and the technical aspects of the project -
are given only grunt recognition, not much beyond that of a ditch digger (no
offense the ditch diggers on the list). Then, once a company enters a more
mature phase - like revenue - these same companies now struggle to find good
technical talent in order to scale and sustain themselves.
That said, there are consistently good looking jobs out there - just look at
the NYPHP-Jobs list. Anyone who really wanted a good job, could get one -
the PHP job market is extremely tight - and even in this rocky economy, a
good developer can call their price. And if you're dealing with one of
those start-ups that was annoying last year, like in any job market,
sometimes you have to swallow your pride.
H
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-
> bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On Behalf Of Kristina Anderson
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:00 PM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Why IT Sucks
>
> Tom --
>
> The average corporate attorney makes $200K. The average attorney in
> business for themselves makes about the same. The average CPA, about
> 150K. The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more than
> we do.
>
> The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary? (I'm self
> employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty
> constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K
> barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.)
>
> And you don't feel this is an ISSUE? You don't honestly feel that the
> social status of the IT profession needs some improvement, that most of
> us are underpaid?
>
> Come on, work with us.
>
> -- Kristina
>
> > Guys, I have to be honest, this "Webmaster test" and its associated
> > threads are a train wreck for me. I can't stop reading them,
> although
> > admittedly I find them ridiculous.
> >
> > I do believe in the saying, "if you don't have something nice to
> > say..." which is why I haven't commented thus far, but if this email
> > below is flamebait, then, well, you got me (and no, I'm not the type
> > to fall for Rick Rolls).
> >
> > "Connected with the low social status of IT"
> > "I've got a PhD and I can't even manage a middle class existence?"
> > "I see two things that suck about careers in IT: (1) the pay"
> >
> > Are you kidding me? Listen, I don't know you or your status, but
> this
> > is not the life I've lived through my career in technology or the
> > perception I have of the industry, nor is it that of my friends and
> > colleagues. I mean no disrespect, but have you actually tried
> > looking?
> >
> > To be fair, IT is a very general term, and I suspect you might be in
> > the more traditional definition of it, meaning corporate LAN support
> > and the like. But for web engineers, this should not be the case,
> > despite the recession. To be blunt, I have friends and colleagues
> > with multiple offers, from the "big guys". The recruiters are
> calling
> > and messaging on the social networking sites daily. So, to paint the
> > picture that this field is disintegrating, or not really a
> profession,
> > or whatever, to lurkers, newbies and veterans alike is just plain
> > wrong.
> >
> > As for that 3 comment I flagged, well, I do agree with the 2nd point
> > you listed there. That does suck. But, then again, you see that in
> > every industry.
> >
> > And for those yearning for a life of state licensing and unions,
> > please be careful what you wish for. The same system that protects
> > many also keeps many others out of work. Ask a Long Island K-12
> > teacher why they can't get a job even though they are at the top of
> > their field. Ask any contractor that has to compete on the lowest
> > possible price because they are bound by law to do things a certain
> > way with certain tools with certain procedures. They've commoditized
> > their industries and now can't differentiate themselves from others
> in
> > their field. And, when was the last time you saw any real innovation
> > in those fields that made its way to us? I'm still turning on the
> > lights the same way my parents did.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:32 PM, <paul at devonianfarm.com> wrote:
> > > <rant>
> > > This is a continuity reboot of the "Webmaster test" thread.
> > >
> > > I'm a member of the ACM, although I don't know why. There's a
> lot of handwringing in "Communications of the ACM" about the state of
> the IT job markets... Is it expanding or contracting? Why aren't more
> women in IT? It sounds like "blah blah blah" to me.
> > >
> > > You hear a lot of talk about the threat of outsourcing to US IT
> jobs... The way I see it, outsourcing doesn't cause unemployment for
> IT workers but it does lower our pay and it does lower our social
> status -- which is the point people don't talk about.
> > >
> > > I see two things that suck about careers in IT: (1) the pay,
> and (2) working for people who don't know what they hell they're doing.
> > >
> > > I'm not going to complain about my current situation, which is
> pretty much what I need at this point in my life, but, like a lot of
> people in IT, I've worked at a string of crazy places.
> > >
> > > IT jobs pay better than working for Wal*Mart, but my brother-
> in-law, who works as a foreman on a construction site, gets paid
> better than me -- despite the fact that I've got twice the education
> and skills that seem to be rare and in demand... (It's always seemed
> that way no matter which side of the table I've sit at in job
> interviews) Construction workers have a union, but IT people don't
> work.
> > >
> > > Last summer I was a contractor at a company that had a great
> culture, great clients and was working with interesting and fun
> technology. I got offered a job that had a big 401K (makes wall street
> rich) and the potential for a large bonus, but no health insurance. I
> mean, I've got a PhD and I can't even manage a middle class existence?
> > >
> > > The work I do takes as much training, skill and independent
> thought as being a doctor, a lawyer or accountant -- but I don't get
> paid accordingly and I don't get the respect... For a while I worked
> at a place that hosted a talk by the author of a book called "Leading
> Geeks" -- could anybody get away with writing a book about "Leading
> Niggers?"
> > >
> > > Connected with the low social status of IT, there's the whole
> problem of taking orders from people who don't know what's going on...
> There are certainly some counterexamples... Certainly some places that
> know what time it is, but there's a reason why so many people feel
> like Dilbert.
> > > </rant>
> > >
> > > ===============
> > >
> > > Generation Five Interactive
> > > http://gen5.info/q/
> > >
> > >
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>
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