[nycphp-talk] OT: Freelance PHP gig Not Paying up!
Mark Withington
mwithington at PLMresearch.com
Thu Dec 22 08:03:22 EST 2005
This is a great thread. Kudos to all involved. I would suggest there's
still a lot of caveat emptor... even in open source ;-) I think the fuzzy
spec that Cliff is referencing is doable under the mantra, "release early,
release often". Be it coding or fleshing out the spec no one should get too
far down the path without feedback (and compensation). Obviously, such
feedback requires documentation (UML?) to ensure the fuzz doesn't get
out-of-hand.
Kenneth's advice reminds me of the brick mason story. After getting screwed
by contractors/home owners many times (e.g. building a fireplace and not
getting paid), the crafty mason would place a sheet of glass about halfway
up the flue during construction. The client would visit everyday to ensure
the chimney/fireplace looked the way they wanted. Upon completion the mason
would leave the invoice and wait.... When the client complained that the
house filled with smoke, the mason would complain that he hadn't been paid.
Everything was to spec, the home owner could even look straight up the
chimney and see blue sky, so why hasn't he been paid? Upon receipt of the
check, the mason would simply climb back up on the roof and drop a brick
down the flu, bid the homeowner a nice day and then kill his dog;-)
The moral of the story? Always be sure you have a brick in your back
pocket.
Cheers,
--------------------------
Mark L. Withington
PLMresearch
"eBusiness for the Midsize Enterprise"
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
> [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]On Behalf Of Cliff Hirsch
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:21 AM
> To: 'NYPHP Talk'
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] OT: Freelance PHP gig Not Paying up!
>
>
> On the flip side, I occasionally would like to outsource
> "pieces" but am
> always nervous unless I have a REALLY concrete spec. And most
> often, by
> the time I have written a spec to the level of detail required, I've
> written the code. It would be wonderful to be able to hand over a
> "fuzzy" spec. and allow the contractor to develop open-ended
> based on it
> and an interactive process. Is there any way to do this
> without getting
> royally screwed other than trust and faith?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
> [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
> On Behalf Of Kenneth Downs
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:12 AM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] OT: Freelance PHP gig Not Paying up!
>
>
> Thanks for reminding me, kill his dog. :)
>
> > Very wise and rational advice. I was just going to say kill his dog.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
> > [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
> > On Behalf Of Kenneth Downs
> > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:00 AM
> > To: NYPHP Talk
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] OT: Freelance PHP gig Not Paying up!
> >
> >
> > Actually a customer is somebody who pays for things, so
> this is not a
> > customer, they are somebody you allowed to steal from you. Here is
> > how you prevent this in the future.
> >
> > Never deliver a system without payment in full, and you get
> progress
> > payments as you go. this means you need a W-I-P server
> where you can
> > put the drafts for them to see, but which they cannot get. If they
> > run into cash problems and want to slow down you say "great", and
> > just leave it there until they come back. If they want to hurry up
> > you say, "great" and ask for some more progress money.
> >
> > If they protest that they don't want to pay too much up
> front, there
> > are two things you must do so that each of you is minimizing risk:
> >
> > 1) State very clearly something like this "My ability to extend
> > credit is very limited, I cannot do more than $X of work w/o being
> > paid, otherwise I cannot keep my commitments"
> >
> > 2) Make sure to give frequent updates to the WIP site so
> they can see
>
> > what they are paying for, this lets them protest and stop progress
> > payments if they don't like it.
> >
> > For the current situation, they obviously believe that they
> don't have
>
> > to pay you, that you don't count. Have your family
> attorney send them
>
> > a letter demanding payment. If that does not work your
> attorney can
> > escalate, and you can probably send their hosting company a letter
> > saying they are hosting an illegal site and ask them to
> take it down.
> > HOWEVER,
> > it is very important when you pursue this legal stuff to
> know that it
> > will take about 30-60 minutes every 2-4 weeks, and in the
> meantime you
> > must not think about these guys, they'll poison your mind,
> concentrate
> > instead on new jobs and getting paid for those. When this
> money comes
> > in after 3-6 months it will be like a bonus.
> >
> >
> >> Hey Gals and Guys,
> >>
> >> I have noticed that there are alot of freelancers on the
> list and I
> >> am
> >
> >> looking for a little advice. I have a client that is
> being a pain.
> >> I
> >
> >> spent alot of time developing a site for them and it
> turned out very
> >> nice in my opinion. The client seemed very happy with the
> finished
> >> product as well.
> >>
> >> The client paid about 1/3 of the cost of the site up front and was
> >> supposed to pay the balance on delivery. I delivered the
> site months
>
> >> ago and have not received further payment. The site is
> still active
> >> and it has been receiving alot of traffic. They receive
> hundreds of
> >> visits a day and many users submitting information.
> Needless to say
> >> they are doing business with the site and making a profit from it.
> >>
> >> The owner of the site has not returned my many calls and
> emails over
> >> the past two months. I am trying to figure out how to get him to
> >> acknowledge me and hopefully pay up! I have a full time job as a
> >> Java/PHP/.NET programmer so I don't do freelance often.
> This was the
> >> only project I have done in years and it was as a favor to
> a friend.
> >> Now I regret doing it at all and feel that I was taken
> advantage of.
> >>
> >> Any advice?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Tom O'Neill
> >> tommyo at gmail.com _______________________________________________
> >> New York PHP Talk Mailing List
> >> AMP Technology
> >> Supporting Apache, MySQL and PHP
> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >> http://www.nyphp.org
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kenneth Downs
> > Secure Data Software
> > 631-379-0010
> > ken at secdat.com
> > PO Box 708
> > East Setauket, NY 11733
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Talk Mailing List
> > AMP Technology
> > Supporting Apache, MySQL and PHP
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > http://www.nyphp.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Talk Mailing List
> > AMP Technology
> > Supporting Apache, MySQL and PHP
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > http://www.nyphp.org
> >
>
>
> --
> Kenneth Downs
> Secure Data Software
> 631-379-0010
> ken at secdat.com
> PO Box 708
> East Setauket, NY 11733
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Talk Mailing List
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> Supporting Apache, MySQL and PHP
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> http://www.nyphp.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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> AMP Technology
> Supporting Apache, MySQL and PHP
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