[nycphp-talk] Philosophy of Frameworks (Was: CAKE Ain't Soup!)

David Krings ramons at
Thu Jan 11 19:02:06 EST 2007

Nate Abele wrote:
> Ah, so you're a support puke, not an actual programmer.  Yeah, that 
> explains a thing or two.
> Anyway, in an effort to cut this discussion short, I'm going to simply 
> suggest that you don't use Cake.  Not now, or at any point in the 
> future.  I, as a core dev of the project, am telling you that no good 
> can come of it.  And this way, if you continue to spout your unasked 
> for, poorly reasoned, and grammatically incorrect opinions, the only 
> reasonable conclusion one could reach is that you're a troll with a 
> learning disability.
> Have a nice day :-)
> - Nate
>> One this this end user for sure DOES NOT do is waste my valuable time on 
>> convoluted nonsense like this explanation has provided. With over twenty 
>> five years of experience in and around Quality Assurance and Customer 
>> Support I can categorically state that this is YET ANOTHER case of an 
>> software engineer  who  has not or can not put himself in the end user  
>> position to experience the real world and does not use or test the 
>> product that he creates as an end user.
Ahh, now it gets interesting when customer-oriented supporters and for 
my own sake only arrogant developers go at each other. I am both a 
developer and spent quite some time in support. Any piece of software is 
supposed to be clearly documented in detail in the form of meaningful 
source code commentary (and that means one for about every two lines of 
code, not just some gibberish at the top) and properly maintained 
technical end-user documentation that enables anyone who is not an 
expert developer or god to make use of the software. It is absolutely 
irrelevant if the software is open -source and free to use or 
proprietary with a  million dollar price tag. And no, source code is not 
I am in no way implying that volunteer open-source developer have the 
same time, skill, and resources available to prepare proper 
documentation. Nevertheless, developers need to know that there is a 
need and a purpose for proper documentation as well as get one thing 
straight right from the start: if the software is supposed to be used by 
a (paying) community the software is to be developed for that community 
and not for the enjoyment of the developer (enjoyment being having fun 
programming or just getting the paycheck each month). Documentation is 
as important as the code itself, especially when others are asked to 
contribute and join in the project. It is also necessary to crank the 
developer arrogance switch to 0 and come to terms with the fact that 
error messages have a purpose and that is guiding the end-user towards a 
solution of the detected problem. Errors such as "database configuration 
file missing" are IMHO plain garbage. Knowing from my own development 
projects creating proper error handling is boring, annoying, time 
consuming, and adds nothing towards the overall functionality.

Reading the posts from both sides I must say that each has some truth to 
it. The supporter who has some development experience is for sure the 
better supporter. But nothing straightens out a developer more than a 
bitching customer.

That said, flame's funny. ;)


More information about the talk mailing list