[nycphp-talk] Re: OT: webmaster test
Kristina Anderson
ka at kacomputerconsulting.com
Wed Apr 16 12:40:16 EDT 2008
Jim -- after 24 years in the field, I'd suggest that probably you are
eligible to be granted a degree based on life experience!! :)
I was certainly not saying that a degree makes any sort of difference
in competency (it doesn't!), but only that to be considered
a "profession" for licensing purposes, a degree (or life experience
constituting equivalence of a 4-yr degree!) would be most likely
required.
Probably I would run into issues with licensing myself as my degree was
in Literature & Linguistics (1985) ...and I used an old manual
typewriter to do my research papers! LOL.
--Kristina
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> Guess 24 years experience programming in all kinds of environments
with
> 15 or so languages does not constitute a profession then based on
your
> position that it requires a degree. I have no degree. I have very
> little formal training.
>
> The problem in today's world is that too much emphasis is put on a
> degree, and not enough emphasis is put on experience. I'm not trying
to
> denigrate degrees, I wish I had one ( especially considering the
heavy
> emphasis ). But, when I entered the programming fray, degrees were
not
> emphasized. I suspect that the dearth in competent coders at the
time
> was a heavy influence.
>
> I very much like the lawyer example considering Frank Abagnale Jr.
> Frank was made famous by Leonardo Dicaprio's portrayal in "Catch Me
if
> You Can". While the movie is an exaggeration of the reality of the
> story, according to Frank, he did pass the bar exam without any
formal
> education. Now Frank may be an exceptional intellect, but I think it
> does draw out that it is fully possible for individuals to rise to
the
> industry standard without a formal education.
>
> I consider myself a professional in a profession even without the
> degree. In fact, I consider myself a craftsman rather than an
engineer
> because I take pride in everything I do and apply ingenuity and
> creativity rather than rely on a canned set of solutions.
>
> Once again, I do not disregard formalized education, it forms a very
> good foundation on which to build a profession. But to assume that
no
> formalized education denotes a non-professional elevates formalized
> education to the be-all and end-all for the profession. If that were
> the case, then, students coming out of college should be fully
prepared
> to BE what they trained to be. I can't tell you how many interviews
I
> have conducted with graduates who obviously lacked the skills to do
the
> job. Ability should be the bellwether, not how that ability came to
be.
>
> The real discussion is not on what qualifies one for the profession,
but
> rather, how do we accurately measure ability. I don't have the
answer
> to that question. And, I think that were an answer to that question
> readily available, there would be no need for this discussion. Maybe
> part of the licensing process should borrow from the medical
community
> and require a period of "residency".
>
> Kristina Anderson wrote:
> > For all intents and purposes, a software engineer/application
developer
> > must have a bachelor's degree of some sort, and certainly after 10
> > years of doing this, I consider that it takes considerable training
and
> > specialized study to be reasonably good.
> >
> > My question to you Urb: Would you consider me, a person with a non-
CS
> > university degree (B.A.), and 10 years of actual paid experience,
to
> > be "self taught" or merely "non traditionally formally educated"...?
> > It's true that the skills to be a good programmer were learned "in
the
> > field" and not in a classroom but isn't that true of everyone? And
to
> > say "self taught" is to really underestimate the contributions of
very
> > brilliant people I have learned from over the years including one
Dr.
> > Jerry A. who posts to this list, and many others.
> >
> > I would sure welcome a NYS professional license for software
developers
> > and want to know would anyone else want to get active on that? It
> > could require a certain number of years of actual paid experience
and a
> > test and whatever else...I'm 100% in favor of this if it helps us
get
> > more respect. As Urb pointed out, other types of engineers do have
> > licensing.
> >
> > (My previous polemic having been somewhat out of place because we
were
> > talking about a "webmaster test" -- but it's one thing if you are
> > looking for someone who can hand code a little HTML...that's not
> > necessarily a "profession" -- but if you are looking for someone
who
> > can administer your LAMP environment AND design & develop your LAMP
> > applications then you are looking for someone with a sh*tload of
> > experience and broad based experience at that...you are looking for
a
> > LAMP engineer not a "webmaster". Calling this person a "webmaster"
> > with all those skills is another way of keeping respect, and pay
> > scales, down.)
> >
> > My point having been that (no offense to the lawyers out there) it
> > takes WAY MORE BRAINS to design & develop working code than it does
to
> > write a divorce complaint or a commercial lease -- which is what
most
> > lawyers do -- most of them are not litigation experts who deal with
> > arcane Supreme Court decisions and get on Court TV -- and by the
same
> > token most software developers are not dealing with the highest,
most
> > arcane levels of software (whatever that might be deemed to be).
> >
> > But it is a profession requiring a 4 year degree (de facto) and
> > CONSIDERABLE training and specialized education...!!
> >
> >
> >>>> By definition, programming and website design is not a
> >>>> profession.
> >>>>
> >>> Really? What specifically is that definition?
> >>>
> >> profession: "An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering,
> >> that requires considerable training
> >> and specialized study"
> >>
> >> Houghton Mifflin Dictionary.
> >>
> >> Even an engineer must have a professional engineering (PE)
> >> designation to perform certain types of design.
> >> I don't have a problem with a self taught programmers, I've known
> >> some great ones, however, a field having
> >> a large number of practitioners without formal training is a trade
> >> not a profession. A profession is also
> >> self-regulated.
> >>
> >> It's another thread but, should there be certification available
for
> >> programmers and web designers? If we
> >> ever want to be considered a profession, that's the first step. I
was
> >> in the stock brokerage business when
> >> the designation Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) first came into
> >> being. It was extraordinarily difficult
> >> and it took almost two years after the announcement before the
first
> >> designation were awarded. It required
> >> two 8 hour day testing sessions. It made a huge difference in the
> >> industry and these days you will not get
> >> a senior level job in a research department without a CFA. Same
thing
> >> happened with Chartered Financial
> >> Planner (CFP).
> >>
> >> I'm unsure of the procedure, but how/when does one change the
subject
> >> when we have drifted into a new
> >> area?
> >>
> >>
> >> Urb
> >>
> >> Dr. Urban A. LeJeune, President
> >> E-Government.com
> >> 609-294-0320 800-204-9545
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> E-Government.com lowers you costs while increasing your
expectations.
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >
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