[nycphp-talk] Cake v. Symfony

inforequest 1j0lkq002 at
Sat Sep 9 15:07:20 EDT 2006

Kenneth Downs |nyphp dev/internal group use| wrote:

> Peter Sawczynec wrote:
>> Now it may be time for new talents to focus on the next evolutionary
>> competitive step and that would be to tie together, maximize, enhance 
>> and
>> compound all these "generic" projects and spin them into very rich, full
>> package commercial enterprise-wide solutions with a bit more out of 
>> the box
>> readiness to meet the expectations of known market segments that need 
>> and
>> buy full scale (verily even expensive and satisfyingly profitable) web
>> application solutions.
> Let me challenge this that perhaps it will be the old talents, those
> with solid histories of delivering the goods, who may pick up PHP
> because it will help them with their business goals of delivering
> quality goods.
> If so, they will already have established contacts and books of
> businesses in the markets you mention below.  They won't be interested
> in MVC, ORM, or the finer points of package distribution.  They will be
> interested in delivering goods at a profit, as they always have been and
> always will.
> How do frameworks fit into that picture?  Or, how does the framework fit
> into the picture of the larger realities of software development such as
> incomplete specs, contradictory specs, impossible timelines, cash-flow
> problems from slow-to-pay customers, arbitrary change requests, the need
> for things that there never seems to be time for like testing,
> documentation and training, and many others.
> Any framework that begins by expecting the customer to adapt to the
> programming model will fail.  Any framework that is not solidly grounded
> in real-life projects will likely fade eventually.  And, perhaps biggest
> of all, any framework that does not learn from the systems that have
> come before, from COBOL to Foxpro and VB and Java, will be overtaken by
> those that are built with a sober knowledge of what has come before.
Yes this may be very true, but there are an awful lot of Joomla! sites 
out there, aren't there? Somebody is using it. Oh, and Wordpress has 
become the tool of choice for many "news" sites. Go figure.

People DO pick frameworks and commit to them. Of course these are not 
traditional 'software projects' but web projects.

Now, tomorrow when the VIEW of DATA  has succeeded , and someone 
recognizes there is additonal value in the community, the archives, and 
the efficiencies that can be captured through customization, I agree 
they will either be told (by good consultants) or will discover 
themselves that a framework is only as good as it's ability to be 
utlized in a customized configuration. At that point they will also 
hopefully have the cash and willingness to spend it on development.

It may just be that a frameworks with Parts A-Z is "good enough" to get 
started without having to (re)define all those specs in the first go.

-=john andrews

"If you think this stuff is confusing, you should try optimizing websites for search engine exposure."  john andrews SEO

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